majorshipper | thoughts?

re: scripts/deleted scenes and what is the word-of-God-canon material. If it was in the original draft, is it canon? What about later drafts? What about deleted scenes? Are the only things canon those we see onscreen as a part of the episode/movie itself? What about retconning; does it count if it's subtle and sensible, and not when it's whacky and odd? Or how about things stated during interviews/cons? Is it more canon if a writer says it vs. a producer vs. and actor(in this case, talking about a character)? What if the writers make a mistake early on and then fix it later in canon and interviews; is the original true, or is what they fixed it as the canon?

I've always been pretty liberal with what I consider canon, including deleted scenes and scenes that were in the filming drafts but got dropped for time or whatever, as well as stuff explicitly stated by writers/producers during interviews. Heck, I even consider most tie-ins canon. And I have no problem with tasteful retconning, most of the time. But I've noticed that a lot of fandom is very, very, very picky about what is canon and what isn't, to the point of discrediting and ignoring retcons and even things the writers themselves say was supposed to happen(I remember the crazy that went down when Joe Mallozzi stated that the writers had planned on a John and Teyla relationship, but hadn't gotten the chance to play it out).

So does most of this stem from fanatical fans who want to believe what they think is right, or are people too burned off trusting the people who create their shows?
IDK. Offer your thoughts. Is defining canon more of a show-by-show, fandom-by-fandom kinda thing?

*This post is brought to you by my wandering brain, How long Sam spent at Standford, and the script for Merlin 4x03. You're welcome.

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I think nothing that doesn't make it on the air is canon. It would make great canon, but it's not? IDK Nothing J.K. Rowling says after the books is what really happened, to me. They kind of messed up the numbers with the whole Sam at Stanford thing, I guess, but they meant him to be just starting his Junior year, I think? I'm much more likely to accept changes to mistakes, but not anything deleted or discussed at a con.

IDK why I'm so...all I can think of is liberal, lol, with how I define canon. I guess I'm greedy for source material? I'm usually on board with deleted scenes if the only reason they were cut is for time or relevance, but if the writers/producers cut them for a plot-related reason, then I'm less likely to count it canon.
You bring up an interesting point, though, in regards to books and written material; I'm usually a lot more strict about what I accept as canon when it comes to the written word as in books (though I've never been interested or involved in HP, so I can't speak to that particular series).

With the whole Stanford thing, basically, it was them messing up when they made Sam 22 instead of 20; they forgot to account for the extra two years in the first couple of scripts, and so some stuff reads as Sam and Dean having been separated for 2 years, while others later said Sam had been at school for 4 years. In the end, I think most of fandom's just accepted that he was in his third year, so a Junior, but Dean and Sam rounded it up or down, depending on how they felt.
Though, that's kinda an interesting take; I don't think any of TPTB have officially given that as canon, and it certainly hasn't been explicitly mentioned in the show itself, so by that definition it's not canon, and yet most of fandom considers it as such.

If they cut it for time, then it just didn't happen on camera, I guess. Like Dean drinking beer and watching soaps and fighting with his crutch while he was recovering. I'm not much of a stickler about this whole canon/fanon thing, though. I just realize how much everything changes before it makes it on the air, and how easily things could end up entirely different.

I remember Kripke talking about it at Paley and saying they just messed up when they counted.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think one reason people tend to like clearly defined "If it aired, then it's canon" way of thinking is because you never know if the writers might take things one direction from a specific scene that wasn't in early drafts but did make the shooting script, or, in another direction, you never know how story lines might change depending on how fans react to a specific scene in a show. So I recognize why canon can be a big deal when it comes down to it.

That might not make much sense...I've got a raging headache and I should probably sleep XD

ahh the question of what's canon...
that's really interesting.
'cause lately my head canon has been taking in stuffs from the stuffs producers said or things that were written in the novels.

Personally, I don't count things said at cons to be canon.
'cause sometimes the actors are just kidding around and such.
Like the stuff with Dean crying into Cas' trench coat.
LOL it's a very nice image but I don't think it really happens.
If anything, I imagine Dean not being able to look at the overcoat for the most part.

But...I guess I think rather than show-by-show or fandom-by-fandom, personally for me it's individual-by-individual???
I have a lot of head canon stuffs knocking around in my head (which I will start posting on my LJ and will generally annoy everyone :P) and some of them are taken from the little clues from the shows, others are from outside source...so I don't know.
I think it's different with everyone.

:|
lol I tried so hard to sound coherent.
I'm not sure if I succeeded or not.

No, no, what you said made total sense. :)
When I say at cons, I tend to mean more genuine character insights...like when Jared goes all serious and talks about Sam's development in S4. I feel like, often, actors can have genuine insight into these characters that they've helped create over the years, and so they can see things from a totally different perspective than us. That's more my take.
~~My secret canon is that Dean sleeps with it. No, really. Bunched up under his pillow.~~ Yeah, I tend to actually believe that Dean is purposefully ignoring everything Cas because he's a suppressor like me and we don't deal with shit 'till it blows up in our faces.

That's totally true! And in a way that you probably totally didn't mean, but different things have different levels of "canon" to us fans; Something Kripke might say at SDCC will hold as much or more weight than something...say...Ben Acker says in an interview(yeah, I pulled that one outta my rear...)

In other news, omg, I am excite for your headcanon! I've got so much stuff kicking about in my head...it's crazy. I should write some of it down.

You shooooooooooould~!!
We could compare notes and it would be so fun and exciting to see how the SPN we built in our head differ or have similarities. :DD

When I say at cons, I tend to mean more genuine character insights...like when Jared goes all serious and talks about Sam's development in S4. I

Aaaah!! ok then...
For that, I kind of go with case to case.
'cause you're right. Actors really have better insight into the characters because they've been playing them for so long and well...it's a bit of a double edged swords 'cause sometimes (as I've been witnessing in SPN lately) the actors are more in touch with their characters than the writers.

For me, the stuffs that Jensen says make so so much sense (when he's not kidding around -- when he's saying that Dean would totally keep the trench coat) and he seems to be so attuned with the character...while some writers are just ...not?
And I'm not saying this to be mean or anything but I think that each writer staff understand the characters differently and some know them better than the other. So at times...we do get that inconsistency with the character development.
So yeah..I don't know.

different things have different levels of "canon" to us fans;
Yes yes yes!! because like I said.
We kinda build our own little SPN world in our heads and sometimes what the actor or producer or writer will just makes sense. So even if it wasn't on the show you just decide to keep it anyway because it FITS.

Yeah, Jensen is truly fantastic once you get past the jokes and guh-he's-so-pretty-ness. He's got great thoughts on everything, including the dude he's played for the past seven years. It's kinda...disappointing, like you said, because he says stuff about Dean that really rings true, but is so hard to convey in character and so hard to writers to write without completely betraying the character. So yeah, like you said.

Yeah! Exactly! That's why we have head!canon...and why the Impala was dubbed as "The Impala" in fandom long before it became show-official. Sometimes, we're right.
In my early days of fandom, I thought everything was so rigid and...unmovable. I've learned so much in the past six years, and I'm still learning!

thoughts?

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